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Tuesday, December 29, 2009
Thursday, December 24, 2009
Debating a Christian about God's Existence
It’s Christmas Eve. Tomorrow is Jesus’ birthday.
Well, no, not really. Nobody knows when Jesus was born. Nobody even knows for certain IF Jesus was born. There were lots of Jesus’ in those days. It was a common name. But I’m talking about THE Jesus. There is no solid evidence, outside the bible, that the Messiah Jesus existed, let alone what day he was born on.
The early Church adopted December 25 as a day to celebrate the birth of Christ because it was already being celebrated by the pagans as the day the sun starts turning back north in the sky.
Anyway, some might think this is the wrong time of year to be writing a blog on the subject of the existence of Jesus or even the existence of the Christian god, but what better time? The Christian god does not exist. Now, I’m not saying that God does not exist. I don’t know for sure either way. But the characteristics of God as given to him by Christians are impossible. That god can be ruled out by simple logic.
So, let’s assume I’m talking to a Christian who believes the bible is true. I’m trying to prove to him that his god does not exist. He, of course, is never going to cave in to my logic. But ignoring the truth doesn’t make it go away.
Here is how that conversation might go:
Me: Is it your belief that God created humans?
Christian: Yes, of course He did.
Me: Why did he create humans?
Christian: He is a god of love. He created us so that He could love us and so that we could love Him.
Me: Does he expect to love us forever, or only temporarily, until we die?
Christian: He is an eternal god. He wants to love us forever.
Me: So why doesn’t he just allow us all to go to heaven, regardless?
Christian: He wants us to decide for ourselves to accept him, through Jesus Christ. He gives us free will so we can choose.
Me: Is God omniscient? Does he know everything?
Christian: According to the bible, He is omniscient and eternal. He is Alpha and Omega.
Me: Does he know in advance what our decision will be in the end, to accept him or not?
Christian: He knows everything, even that. But he still allows us to decide.
Me: What if we decide not to believe in him or to accept Jesus?
Christian: Well, those who aren’t saved will go to hell.
Me: What’s hell?
Christian: Many Christians believe it is a place of eternal torture and agony. Others believe it is simply living forever in the absence of God
Me: So, what you’re saying is that we get to choose, but he already knows what our decision is going to be?
Christian: Yes. We are choosing for ourselves; He gave us free will. But since He is omniscient, he knows how we are going to choose.
Me: Since he is eternal, did he know before he created me that I was going to decide not to believe in him?
Christian: Yes, He knew before He created us what our decisions were going to be, but He still makes Himself available to all of us.
Me: So if god knew in advance of our creation whether or not we would decide to believe in him and whether or not to choose Jesus as our savior, then he already knew that many millions of people would not choose him, right?
Christian: Yes, He knew.
Me. And your main premise for god creating us in the first place was so that he could love us and we could love him forever, right?
Christian: Yes.
Me: Then if he already knew, before he created me, that I was not going to accept him, and if those who don’t accept him go to hell, then he knew in advance, before he created me, that I was going to be damned, yet he created me anyway?
Christian: Yes, but He gives us the chance to change our minds. His spirit works within all of us at one time or another and we get to choose to ignore it or accept it.
Me: The bottom line is, if he knows what we are going to do in advance then whatever we choose is already known to him. If we change our minds, he already knows that, too. Knowing what our choices will be, and knowing that many will not choose to accept him, even knowing who they are, He created them all anyway. He created them to be condemned. So your original premise, that god created us to love forever, is in error.
Christian: But, well, uh, the Lord works in mysterious ways. We don’t know everything. God is a god of love and he gave us free will, but it’s up to us to love him and choose him.
Me: So now you’re talking in circles. You have nothing new to say and no good answers. I win. Your god does not exist.
You see folks, you can believe whatever you want. Maybe there is a god. Maybe there isn’t. But the god of the bible cannot exist because the premise for his creation is faulty. Maybe god is not omniscient. Maybe he knows a lot but not everything. Maybe he’s powerful, but not omnipotent. Maybe he can’t create a rock so heavy that even he cannot move it, because I just created such a rock in my logic above.
Whatever you choose to believe, it would be nice if it could be supported by rational thought. The god of the bible cannot be.
Merry Christmas.
Well, no, not really. Nobody knows when Jesus was born. Nobody even knows for certain IF Jesus was born. There were lots of Jesus’ in those days. It was a common name. But I’m talking about THE Jesus. There is no solid evidence, outside the bible, that the Messiah Jesus existed, let alone what day he was born on.
The early Church adopted December 25 as a day to celebrate the birth of Christ because it was already being celebrated by the pagans as the day the sun starts turning back north in the sky.
Anyway, some might think this is the wrong time of year to be writing a blog on the subject of the existence of Jesus or even the existence of the Christian god, but what better time? The Christian god does not exist. Now, I’m not saying that God does not exist. I don’t know for sure either way. But the characteristics of God as given to him by Christians are impossible. That god can be ruled out by simple logic.
So, let’s assume I’m talking to a Christian who believes the bible is true. I’m trying to prove to him that his god does not exist. He, of course, is never going to cave in to my logic. But ignoring the truth doesn’t make it go away.
Here is how that conversation might go:
Me: Is it your belief that God created humans?
Christian: Yes, of course He did.
Me: Why did he create humans?
Christian: He is a god of love. He created us so that He could love us and so that we could love Him.
Me: Does he expect to love us forever, or only temporarily, until we die?
Christian: He is an eternal god. He wants to love us forever.
Me: So why doesn’t he just allow us all to go to heaven, regardless?
Christian: He wants us to decide for ourselves to accept him, through Jesus Christ. He gives us free will so we can choose.
Me: Is God omniscient? Does he know everything?
Christian: According to the bible, He is omniscient and eternal. He is Alpha and Omega.
Me: Does he know in advance what our decision will be in the end, to accept him or not?
Christian: He knows everything, even that. But he still allows us to decide.
Me: What if we decide not to believe in him or to accept Jesus?
Christian: Well, those who aren’t saved will go to hell.
Me: What’s hell?
Christian: Many Christians believe it is a place of eternal torture and agony. Others believe it is simply living forever in the absence of God
Me: So, what you’re saying is that we get to choose, but he already knows what our decision is going to be?
Christian: Yes. We are choosing for ourselves; He gave us free will. But since He is omniscient, he knows how we are going to choose.
Me: Since he is eternal, did he know before he created me that I was going to decide not to believe in him?
Christian: Yes, He knew before He created us what our decisions were going to be, but He still makes Himself available to all of us.
Me: So if god knew in advance of our creation whether or not we would decide to believe in him and whether or not to choose Jesus as our savior, then he already knew that many millions of people would not choose him, right?
Christian: Yes, He knew.
Me. And your main premise for god creating us in the first place was so that he could love us and we could love him forever, right?
Christian: Yes.
Me: Then if he already knew, before he created me, that I was not going to accept him, and if those who don’t accept him go to hell, then he knew in advance, before he created me, that I was going to be damned, yet he created me anyway?
Christian: Yes, but He gives us the chance to change our minds. His spirit works within all of us at one time or another and we get to choose to ignore it or accept it.
Me: The bottom line is, if he knows what we are going to do in advance then whatever we choose is already known to him. If we change our minds, he already knows that, too. Knowing what our choices will be, and knowing that many will not choose to accept him, even knowing who they are, He created them all anyway. He created them to be condemned. So your original premise, that god created us to love forever, is in error.
Christian: But, well, uh, the Lord works in mysterious ways. We don’t know everything. God is a god of love and he gave us free will, but it’s up to us to love him and choose him.
Me: So now you’re talking in circles. You have nothing new to say and no good answers. I win. Your god does not exist.
You see folks, you can believe whatever you want. Maybe there is a god. Maybe there isn’t. But the god of the bible cannot exist because the premise for his creation is faulty. Maybe god is not omniscient. Maybe he knows a lot but not everything. Maybe he’s powerful, but not omnipotent. Maybe he can’t create a rock so heavy that even he cannot move it, because I just created such a rock in my logic above.
Whatever you choose to believe, it would be nice if it could be supported by rational thought. The god of the bible cannot be.
Merry Christmas.
Monday, December 21, 2009
Atheist Signs Annoy Believers
You can drive down almost any street in any small town, big city, or along any country road and sooner or later you will see a sign proclaiming “Jesus Loves,” or “Jesus is Lord,” or listing a bible verse, usually “John 3:16.” You’ll see Christian messages on church placards or read some bible verse on a bumper sticker.
But when someone puts up a sign that says something as innocuous as “Reason’s Greetings” people get all bent out of shape. It happened recently in Las Vegas, of all places. One resident of that city said, “If I had a ladder I would have climbed up there and pulled it down myself,” speaking about a billboard, funded by a local atheist, that read, “Yes Virginia, there is no god.
“I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and I didn't like it,” the angry resident added.
Well, tough. I don’t like all the Christian crap I have to read every time I go for a drive. That offends me, too. But I acknowledge that people have a right to their beliefs and they have a right to put up signs (assuming they’re put up legitimately; many are not). So if Christians have to read the occasional secular message put up by those who value reason over superstition, well that’s just too bad.
Christians do not own this country. This country was not founded as a Christian nation, despite rumors to the contrary. And atheists have just as much right to put up secular messages as Christians have to put up their drivel.
Across the country, in Asheville, North Carolina, a newly-elected city councilman was sworn in without using the phrase “So help me God.” He didn’t put his hand on the bible either. Some residents don’t like it and say that he was seated unlawfully because the North Carolina constitution requires officeholders to believe in God.
Even if that it so, state law permits officeholders to affirm rather than swear by God. And such state constitutional requirements are a clear violation of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits any religious test before taking office. The Supreme Court reaffirmed this in a 1961 case.
So regardless of who it offends or makes uncomfortable, secular humanists have every bit as much right to express their beliefs, or lack thereof, as Christians. It’s just that Christians have had carte blanch control over so much of this country for so long, they are loathe to share that control with non-believers.
Following the 9/11 terrorist strikes, which were religiously-motivated, many Americans have re-examined their religious affiliations. The attacks were horrendous. But if any good has come from their aftermath, it is that Americans are more secular than ever. Religion is a boil on the ass of America and it needs to be lanced.
Many, if not most religious folks are honest, decent citizens and I hold them no ill will. But I detest anyone who tries to undermine the freedom of speech of those who are non-religious. Too many religious people have a sense of superiority because of their religion. I’ve seen and heard it too often.
But non-believers are the fastest-growing group in America when it comes to a belief system. Atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, or whatever label you want to give them, they are becoming more numerous as most Christian denominations see their ranks dwindling. That’s the good news. The bad news is that Christians are still in the majority and they still want to control the flow of information.
But when someone puts up a sign that says something as innocuous as “Reason’s Greetings” people get all bent out of shape. It happened recently in Las Vegas, of all places. One resident of that city said, “If I had a ladder I would have climbed up there and pulled it down myself,” speaking about a billboard, funded by a local atheist, that read, “Yes Virginia, there is no god.
“I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and I didn't like it,” the angry resident added.
Well, tough. I don’t like all the Christian crap I have to read every time I go for a drive. That offends me, too. But I acknowledge that people have a right to their beliefs and they have a right to put up signs (assuming they’re put up legitimately; many are not). So if Christians have to read the occasional secular message put up by those who value reason over superstition, well that’s just too bad.
Christians do not own this country. This country was not founded as a Christian nation, despite rumors to the contrary. And atheists have just as much right to put up secular messages as Christians have to put up their drivel.
Across the country, in Asheville, North Carolina, a newly-elected city councilman was sworn in without using the phrase “So help me God.” He didn’t put his hand on the bible either. Some residents don’t like it and say that he was seated unlawfully because the North Carolina constitution requires officeholders to believe in God.
Even if that it so, state law permits officeholders to affirm rather than swear by God. And such state constitutional requirements are a clear violation of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits any religious test before taking office. The Supreme Court reaffirmed this in a 1961 case.
So regardless of who it offends or makes uncomfortable, secular humanists have every bit as much right to express their beliefs, or lack thereof, as Christians. It’s just that Christians have had carte blanch control over so much of this country for so long, they are loathe to share that control with non-believers.
Following the 9/11 terrorist strikes, which were religiously-motivated, many Americans have re-examined their religious affiliations. The attacks were horrendous. But if any good has come from their aftermath, it is that Americans are more secular than ever. Religion is a boil on the ass of America and it needs to be lanced.
Many, if not most religious folks are honest, decent citizens and I hold them no ill will. But I detest anyone who tries to undermine the freedom of speech of those who are non-religious. Too many religious people have a sense of superiority because of their religion. I’ve seen and heard it too often.
But non-believers are the fastest-growing group in America when it comes to a belief system. Atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, or whatever label you want to give them, they are becoming more numerous as most Christian denominations see their ranks dwindling. That’s the good news. The bad news is that Christians are still in the majority and they still want to control the flow of information.
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