Saturday, August 29, 2009

How to Debate a Christian

When I was a kid, I believed all the popular stories of the bible. I believed that Noah and his family really did build a big boat. I believed Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth. I believed that Eve spoke to a snake and that Jonah was eaten by a whale (although it turned out to be a big fish). The sad part is I believed most of these things at least a little all the way into my college years.

Lacking a single epiphany, I gradually started to question the literality of these biblical events. I was a science major in college. I knew that Noah could not have gotten a pair of all the world’s animals into a single boat. I knew Jonah could not have survived inside a giant fish for three days. But I was still open to the possibility of Adam and Eve, although I was dubious about the talking snake.

I also knew that the six days of Creation were not really six literal days. They were just the bible’s way of meaning periods of time. I certainly believed things evolved, because it’s hard to ignore scientific evidence if you’re not a fundamentalist. But I thought it was probably guided by God.

But when I was in my mid-40s, I did have a moment of epiphany. While talking to my pastor about a years-long crisis of faith, after spending 10 years going to church every week, reading the bible, praying, getting baptized, and trying to debate skeptics about the existence of God, it dawned on me that I was an agnostic. My pastor asked me what I believed, deep down. I replied I didn’t really know at that point. I told him I think God exists, but I know nothing at all about Him and I’m not sure how anyone else does either.

He told me I had stumbled on the right answer. I had been asked, and I had answered the $64,000 question. I was an agnostic who leaned toward believing. But if there actually is a god, nobody knows any more about what he is like or what he wants than I do. My pastor was, and is, a very smart man. Unlike many Christian leaders, he is open-minded and non-dogmatic.

Since then, my disbelief has grown as my belief has diminished. But I still do not call myself an atheist; that would mean I know too much about the God situation. It would mean, to me at least, that I know enough to know he does not exist. I don’t know that much yet. What I do know for sure is that I still know nothing at all about God or his existence. And I know enough to say for certain that nobody else knows either. I can say that because I do not have enough evidence to prove or disprove anything about God. And nobody has any more evidence than I do. Therefore, they can’t know either. Some only believe they know and they’re not shy about telling the world what they think they know.

So, over the past few years, and especially over the last few weeks, I have found myself in confrontational mode regarding religion. I was raised Christian and spent most of my adult life calling myself a Christian. Many of my family members are Christians. My mom is a Christian. Sometimes when we get together at family birthdays or holidays, a debate breaks out about religion. Sometimes it isn’t pretty.

I have found myself drawn into debates on Facebook, in the forums, about the existence of God, or whether the phrase “under God” should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance, or whether “In God we trust” should be removed from our currency. I hear things like “This nation was founded on Christianity” all the time. I also seem to be the object of a lot of prayers from well-meaning but utterly self-righteous Christians.

Although I hold my own in these debates, I don’t really expect to win any converts. I am hopeful, however, that the lukewarm Christians or the fence-sitters will see the light of reason and not fall into the illogical abyss of Christianity.

Why do I care? I’ve been asked that a lot. I don’t really care what people I don’t even know believe. I respect their right to believe whatever kind of fairy tale they want, but don’t expect me to respect the belief itself. I care more what my family believes because I am close to them and I would like for them to be enlightened.

I’m a teacher. I can’t help but feel somehow threatened by ignorance. I can’t help but to try to correct people when they say something that is obviously incorrect, such as when they say this country was founded on Christianity. That is factually wrong. I teach science, so it bothers me that so many people prefer to believe the allegory in Genesis about God’s Creation instead of the evidence-based theory of evolution. It’s in my nature to try to set people straight, whether they want to be set straight or not.

So in an effort to make future debates easier, I have done some research. I’ve collected some counter arguments to some of the most popular claims of the evangelical Christians. I’ve produced some in-context quotes of our Founding Fathers proving that the U.S. is not really a Christian nation. And I’ve learned how to recognize straw-man arguments brought forth by Creationists and how to counter them with the truth.

It won’t make a bit of difference to the person I am debating. But, as I said, it might do those who have an open mind some good to read rational thoughts among the bible babble.

One thing I have noticed is that Christians love to quote the bible. They use it as their source of information and their one and only manual of attack. But what might not be so obvious to an innocent bystander is that almost all of their bible-based arguments are logically flawed.

For one thing, it is hard to take the bible seriously when it is so self-contradictory that you can use it to prove or disprove almost any contention. Here are just a few examples of how it is self-contradictory:

Take the first and second chapters of Genesis. They tell two completely different and mutually-exclusive stories of Creation. Fundamentalists often say that Chapter 1 gives a full account of Creation and Chapter 2 merely sums it up using different words, but that isn’t true. In Genesis 1:20 and 21 it says, “every living creature” is brought forth from the waters, including every winged fowl. But in Genesis 2:19 God brings forth “every beast of the field and every fowl of the air” from dry ground.

The order of Creation is completely different between the two biblical accounts, too. In Chapter 1, beasts were created before man; in Chapter 2, man was created before beasts. This may not seem too important a point, but it makes it difficult to reconcile obviously contradictory passages with the idea that the bible is literal and infallible. You can’t have it both ways.

The Genesis 1 and 2 contradictions are useful when debating a Creationist. But they are hardly the only biblical contradictions. There are contradictions within the Old Testament, contradictions within the New Testament, contradictions between the New and Old Testaments, even contradictions within the same book.

In Genesis, it tells us that God needed to rest on the seventh day of Creation. But Isaiah says that God “fainteth not, neither is (He) weary.” Matthew (19:26), “with God all things are possible.” But the Book of Judges (1:19), says that God could not drive out the inhabitants in the valley “because they had chariots of iron.” Apparently, God has trouble moving things made of iron.

When confronted with the fact that there is lots of evil in the world and God could do something about it if he wanted to, Christians are quick to point out that man has free will and that the devil makes evil. But God said (Isaiah 45:7) “I make peace and create evil.” So evil is God’s fault.

How about this one? “Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matt.7:l). And yet others must be judged? (1Cor. 6:2-4). And, “God is love.” He is “the God of Peace” (Romans 15:33), but in Exodus 15:3, “the Lord is a man of war.” The sheer number of contradictions could fill a book.

Evangelicals love using what they believe is logic to argue their point. Creationists are fond of saying that scientists think that complex life “just happened” or “came together at random.” This is a straw-man argument, one which attempts to refute a sound contention by refuting an extreme version of the contention.

Take the very banal argument against evolution that if you put a monkey in front of a word processor and have him type randomly forever, he still won’t type out A Tale of Two Cities by accident. A novel implies a writer. But evolution does not happen by pure random chance. There are selective pressures at work.

If you put a monkey in front of a keyboard and have him type at random until he accidentally types out the word “it” and then save it in a file, then have him continue typing until he types out “was” and save it in the same file, and so on, the monkey would eventually type out the first sentence of the novel, “It was the best of times; it was the worst of times.” It would take awhile, but the monkey would, indeed, eventually type out the entire novel.

Arguing by begging the question or using circular reasoning is another favorite weapon in the Christian arsenal. But it isn’t an effective one. “The bible is the absolute truth.” How do you know? “Because it is God’s word and God doesn’t lie.” How do you know it is God’s word? “Because it says so in the bible.” It’s amazing how many otherwise rational people don’t pick up on this.

Many Christians argue using false cause reasoning. For example, “Statistics show juvenile delinquency is rising. Therefore, we need to post the Ten Commandments in public schools.” It’s a conclusion based on insufficient evidence. There is no proof that having the Ten Commandments posted in school will result in less juvenile delinquency.

Then there are the slippery slope arguments. A conclusion is assumed based on the happening of a single event. “If we take ‘under God’ out of the Pledge, it will eventually lead us to be a Godless nation.” Christians also use this type of argument to conclude that atheists and agnostics have no sense of morality because they have nothing to base it on. They don’t seem to realize that morality pre-dated the invention of God. Our morality is an evolutionary adaptation that keeps us from killing off our own species.

In the poll forums on Facebook, there are often large majorities that support a pro-Christian question. So a lot of debaters use the argument of popular sentiment as proof that their side is right. But just because an opinion is popular doesn’t necessarily mean it is correct. A lot of people can be deluded. Slavery used to be popular. The only proof of an argument that is worth considering is empirical evidence.

And don’t forget that anecdotal evidence does not count. Evidence has to be repeatable and verifiable.

It is easy to stump a Christian with logic. But you probably will never change his or her mind. They are very good at cop-outs, such as “God works in mysterious ways,” or “God does things in his own time.” These are not proofs. When Christians start using these aphorisms, it means they have surrendered to logic; they just can’t admit it and still maintain their faith. But you will know that you have won the debate at that point.

There are many more types of fallacies that Christians often use to prove their point. All of them are flawed. An exhaustive list of fallacies can be found here. And a good source for bible contradictions is here. And you can find my assemblage of Founding Fathers quotes against religion here.

And, of course, if you are debating with a Creationist, some of your best sources of information are here.

24 comments:

Tim said...

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the great post!

For me it was just good to know that I'm not alone in my struggles with Christianity.

A little background; I'm a preachers kid, who basically grew up in the church. At 15 years old I was in the youth choir, youth group, I taught Sunday school AND I was the youngest member of the church council. In retrospect, I wasn't involved in church because of a tremendous belief in God, but instead it was a way of getting attention from my Dad.

Now, at 43 years old, I find myself with some deep rooted resentments about religion. In fact I find myself feeling rageful when confronted by a believer. Do you ever feel that?

About a year ago I had a fundamentalist approach me in a grocery store parking lot. He told me that in 20 seconds he could prove to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that there is a God. I told him to do it. He then proceded to ask me who created my watch, and of course I said a watch maker. He asked who created my car and I said a car maker. You get the idea. Then he asked who created that tree over there. When I told him I didn't know for sure, he said, "RIGHT! EVERYTHING must have a creator, So logic tells us that there has to be a God"

Well, then I asked him who created God. At this he made some sort of lame argument about God being the intelligent spark for everything. It then hit me that this man had just made a better argument against there being a God. The gist of his argument was that in order to something to become real, it MUST have a creator. So how can God be real?

I agree that it's hard to get my head around how everything we see on Earth came from nothing. It blows my mind. But at the same time, Christians are willing to say that God came from nothing. And isn't God infinitely more complex than a planet?

Thanks for letting me vent a little!!

Tim Tessman
St Paul MN




Sorry for the long message.

Thanks Again!

Tim Tessman
St Paul MN

Jerry Wilson said...

Tim,
One response to the kind of logic you were being exposed to is as follows:

Tell him that if you put all the parts of a watch into a small box and shake, it won't make a watch, but there is a really good chance that any two pieces that belong together will stick together. So take them out and continue shaking until the next two parts accidentally stick together, then take them out. Continue until you have several pairs of parts. Then put them back in the box and repeat the whole process. Eventually, you WILL get a watch, and all without a creator. That's how evolution works. It's not all random; there is selection pressure at work, caused by the environment.

P said...

Man Jerry, I wish you were a History teacher instead! Good Post

Sindy said...

Thank goodness there are still people out there with logic and reasoning. Thank you Tim and Jerry for sharing your experience. Living in the deep south is mentally draining for a non-christian like me. I so crave intelligent conversations with logical people like you guys but I don't have the luxury here.

tagafilipos4_6 said...

Hi Jerry,

I believe you have not really heard of a pastor who speaks the Word of God at this time. A pastor who does this is the one that speaks not for himself, not his will. He shall know of the doctrine, whether it is of God.

That is why the Bible gives information to people that they should try all spirits if hey are of God and be aware of it.

As for that post. "who created God?", they is no information in the Bible as to who, but the Bible says, a Creator creates and not created..so by that statement, i can be sure that the Almighty Father was not created. Even Christ was not created, He was begotten of the Father. He was not created by the Father.

You will wonder, how can a Father give birth? then, take the seahorse for example.it is the male that gives birth..

there are no contradictions in the Bible. it can be understood even by the least of the brethren. I heard once one of the brilliant senators in our place who said he read the Bible from cover to cover but has not really under stood anything about it.

There are mysteries written but not all can understand them.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.


I posted this not to offend. If I may have offended you, I ask your forgiveness.

To god be the Glory always!

Jerry Wilson said...

No offense taken, taga, but why do you insist on quoting bible verses to prove a point to a person who does not believe that the bible is the word of God? There is no part of the NT that was written by an eye-witness to any miraculous event. Nobody who wrote the bible even knew Jesus. Even the earliest of the gospels was written three decades after Jesus died; the others much later. I am simply amazed at how otherwise intelligent people can be taken in by some 2000-year-old collection of anonymous writings. We know that Paul wrote 7 or 8 of the epistles that are ascribed to him and that he wrote them about 20 years after the Crucifixion. But we have no idea who wrote any of the rest of it. I still prefer evidence to faith any day.

PJay said...

Jerry your comments are a little strange, your comments also show that you never really knew or experienced the true God through Jesus Christ.

How does anyone, for example, walk away from the woman or man that they love? You cant, if its true love you will stick it out even though there are problems.

My point is that if you really loved God you would never turn your back on Him, you would want to search and find out more about him and even tell others about Him

My experience with God has been good, bad, up, down. But I love God I cant explain it, its deep inside me, I know he exists. I can talk about numerous times when God really intervened on my behalf. There were times when I doubted God, but always came back believing.

I personally think you have never known or experienced the true God, because its literally impossible to forget the goodness and the caring nature of God.

God be praised for ever and ever.!

Jerry Wilson said...

@PJay: Yes you're right that it would be very tough to walk away from a woman you really loved. But if you loved a woman who was only imaginary from the start, and then you realized she was only imaginary, then you would be deluded if you continued to stay with her.

I did not walk away from God; I simply realized what I had suspected for a long time: God probably does not exist. And if some kind of god does exist he is not the Judeo-Christian god of the bible. That is impossible.

Your experiences with your god are yours and I can't take them away. But I can suggest that, since others in the world who are not Christian have shared similar experiences, maybe those experiences are not divinely-inspired. Maybe they are simply part of the human mind. That makes more sense than evoking some supernatural explanation.

My advice to Christians is to treat the bible the same way as you would treat an advertisement in a magazine that makes extraordinary claims. Be very skeptical until evidence is provided to support those claims.

sandra said...

Hello there. I stumbled upon this blog entry and wanted to say I found it quite interesting and helpful. I can understand where you're coming from; being 21 and raised in a strict Christian household since birth, I started questioning since middle school. It mostly started later in high school and grew throughout college as I became more educated, but I remember questioning as early as 7th grade. My mother and I used to always argue about religion and politics and it would really strain our relationship. A lot of times I'd just pretend to agree on certain things just to avoid another pointless argument, with her form of debate being quoting the Bible or making things up. But anywho, just wanted to wish you the best!

zagman said...

Interesting post. First off I will say I am a devout Christian. Secondly I do not believe the US is a "Christian Nation" Most of our founding fathers were FreeMasons which I believe is a cult. Also evolution is only a theory it has not been proved. Of course Creation can not be proved completely either. It is not a Christian's responsibility to prove the Bible. A Christian's only responsibility is to share their faith (at least John 3:16) nothing more nothing less. And leave the rest to G*d. Because a non-believer will never be convinced until they are saved.

Jerry Wilson said...

@Zagman: Let me clarify something about evolution. In science, one never says "just a theory." In science, if something is an official theory, it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt and is useful for making predictions, etc. The theory of relativity is also "just" a theory, but if we didn't take it into consideration, GPS systems would not work. Evolution is as much a fact as gravity (also just a theory). It really did take place.

Also I take issue with your assertion that the proof of God comes with beings "saved." Isn't it at all possible that the emotions felt when one is "saved" is simply a trick of the mind? Other religions have something similar to it. Is your god saving Muslims and Hindus, too? Even atheists can experience euphoria from meditation that is similar to the sensation felt after baptism, for example.

Anonymous said...

Hello,

Just wanted to say that this was a very good read. Thank you!

stephen.baliach said...

To your response to the watch argument.

So if you break down the watch into pieces and then shake and see if they come together slowly. How long do you think it would take for all the pieces to randomly click and form a watch? I feel like the process is not even possible because if you did that, you are essentially destroying the creation and then recreating it in hopes of making a point. The watch was made by a watch maker by putting those pieces together and this is akin to God creating. what you are saying then is, in order to show that creation was not put together by a creator, you destroy the creation and then put all the pieces in a small box and shake till it becomes a whole again. It doesn't make sense.

Jerry Wilson said...

@Stephen: You completely miss the point. I was using a simple analogy. You don't have to tear apart a watch in order to build it up again. You could start with the raw materials of a watch that has never been put together. Calculations suggest it would take about 2 years for the watch to put itself together through guided random assembly, which simulates natural selection.

Watchmakers can and do create watches. But we know for a fact that watchmakers exist, not because watches exist, but because we can observe them. We do not have that absolute knowledge about God. If we can explain things without the need for God, then why bring God into the equation. He becomes superfluous, totally unnecessary.

Anonymous said...

Dear Jerry,

I'm 14, and I have the Holy Spirit.
Since I got it, my whole life has turned around.

Looking at your post, I can tell that you obviously don't understand jack about the Bible, despite your history in a church.

I say this bluntly, but my goal is not to offend you. Instead, I want to prove a point.


I don't agree with you, not in the least. I hope you don't mind me starting a debate, but please answer my next questions:

We know that the first dimension is a point, no?
And the second is a line, with no height at all.
The third dimension is what we are living in, as I'm sure you must know.
Tell me, do you know what the fourth dimension is?


I will assume that you will say "time."

(Looking at your logical little argument about who invented God, its safe to say that you agree that dimensions follow a pattern as well, if you are relying on logic alone.)

So, why can't we see this dimension?

Easy. We are trapped in this one.
Tell me I'm wrong?

But imagine for a second that somewhere else you aren't bound by time.

Well, that's God.

Can you imagine it?
I highly doubt that.
But you know the 4th dimension is there, as well as the fifth and sixth and so on...

There's more than we can see, and life isn't an accident.
Don't be stubborn in your self-made explanations.

But although you're wrong, its ok.
We're all human. Just admit it and move on.

Anonymous said...

Dear Jerry,

I'm 14, and I have the Holy Spirit.
Since I got it, my whole life has turned around.

Looking at your post, I can tell that you obviously don't understand jack about the Bible, despite your history in a church.

I say this bluntly, but my goal is not to offend you. Instead, I want to prove a point.


I don't agree with you, not in the least. I hope you don't mind me starting a debate, but please answer my next questions:

We know that the first dimension is a point, no?
And the second is a line, with no height at all.
The third dimension is what we are living in, as I'm sure you must know.
Tell me, do you know what the fourth dimension is?


I will assume that you will say "time."

(Looking at your logical little arguments, its safe to say that you agree that dimensions follow a pattern as well, if you are relying on logic alone.)

So, why can't we see this dimension?

Easy. We are trapped in this one.
Tell me I'm wrong?

But imagine for a second that somewhere else you aren't bound by time.

Well, that's God.

Can you imagine it?
I highly doubt that.
But you know the 4th dimension is there, as well as the fifth and sixth and so on...

There's more than we can see, and life isn't an accident.
Don't be stubborn in your self-made explanations.

But although you're wrong, its ok.
We're all human. Just admit it and move on.

Jerry Wilson said...

To anonymous,

My knowledge of the bible come not only from reading the bible, but from learning about history. Nobody even knows who wrote most of the bible, let alone verify its accuracy.

You say you've felt the holy spirit, well guess what, people of all faiths all around the world, even those with vastly different beliefs than you, claim to have felt what you call the holy spirit. It's part of the human mind.

And before you lecture me on the 4th dimension, do some research into M-theory and then tell me all about the other 6 dimensions that you probably didn't even know about.

Grow up!

Erika said...

Hi,

I came across your thread and saw that you saw a discrepancy in Genesis 2:19.

I read, "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky," meaning that "had formed" is past tense.

You stated, "The order of Creation is completely different between the two biblical accounts, too. In Chapter 1, beasts were created before man; in Chapter 2, man was created before beasts." The order of creation is not completely different in the biblical scriptures you stated. Genesis 1: 24-26 states in the English Standard Version,

" 24And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26Then God said,(O) "Let us make man[h] in our image,(P) after our likeness. And(Q) let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Genesis 2:19, states, "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky." This is restating what God had already done, (a past tense verb) the beasts were already created by him. The scripture doesn't read, "Now, the Lord God made..." as in a sequence of events unfolding but rather "had formed," the sequence of the creation of beasts was done, finished, had been completed. Big difference.

If you read Geneis 2:8, "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east," meaning he previously planted the garden and it was there before he put Adam there.

As you can see, the scriptures seem to state more than once, "Now the Lord God had," meaning, it's a past tense verb. It was already done.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you view this. I'm trying to see how you came up with this discrepancy.

Thanks

Erika said...

"You say you've felt the holy spirit, well guess what, people of all faiths all around the world, even those with vastly different beliefs than you, claim to have felt what you call the holy spirit. It's part of the human mind."

I'm very intrigued by your comment.

I have a question and I guess I would want to know if you think this is just the human mind. Let's say, that the God you don't believe in tells you a man you've never met, named Walter Martin is going to stand up next to you in 3 minutes while you are at a mall in your town. The God you don't believe in tells you he will be wearing a blue polor shirt and light colored khakis. The God you don't believe in says that he wants you to tell Walter that he loves him and is going to miraculously cure his debt of $8,250 incurred at a Las Vegas Casino in the latter part of November.

If something like that happened to you, and you heard the voice of God speaking to you, would you rationalize and say, "It's just my mind." The senses of human beings only operate at a certain distance. You only see so far, smell so far, hear so far, etc.

I'm wondering, what are your thoughts if something like this happened to you on a regular basis?

Thanks

Jerry Wilson said...

@Erika: First of all, read the King James Version on those past perfect tenses turn into present tense. Secondly, read Gen. 2:18 and you'll see that it was because God didn't want man to be alone that he created the other creatures. That shows definite causality.

Jerry Wilson said...

@Erika: Concerning your second post, it is always best to assume that a sensory aberration is caused by the human mind. Hallucinations are very common compared to miracles, which by definition need a supernatural cause. It would make far more sense to suppose you hallucinated the whole thing (Think "A Beautiful Mind") than to assume it was a miraculous supernatural event. Those who automatically attribute such things to God are the ones who are rationalizing.

muttmutt said...

I grew up christian, and for many years I believed without question. I have read many books on christianity, and come to the conclusion, that the Diest, agnostics, and perhaps the Monists are spot on.
SapientiaAudit
Personally I think that if there's something that exists that could in any sense be called 'god' it would be that the universe as a whole is in some sense conscious. That consciousn­ess could, I suppose, reasonably be called 'god'. However If such a thing did exists it would be the result of the increasing­ly complex nature of the universe (us included) and therefore be a completely natural construct.

Since we're part of the Universe, we'd be part of 'god', the end result being that we should just pray to ourselves because we're god and as such we're the only ones that can make things better for ourselves.

muttmutt said...

Oh and to all the christians out there, if god is everywhere, how can you turn away from god? I have made tons of questions just like this one, like if the devil is the author of confusion, then is that why there are several interpretations of one bible? Yahoo answers is more insightful than christians, mainly because christians refuse to question what they believe "just in case" well for me, I know other religions predate the christian one, and other beliefs had a savior figure, maybe dionysius or Attis is pitching a fit that Jesus is in the limelight. christians dont know, they never bothered to ask god directly, always going to the messenger........sighs. Im a Pagan, for many reasons, but I grew up christian. I dont like organized religion, and I dont have nor want a coven.

Anonymous said...

Hey Jerry,

Your post was very refreshing. I find that many Christians have a difficult time sharing a story like yours. Maybe they are too proud? I don't know.

I am the only non-believer in my family and my Aunt constantly talks about God during the most random moments. She is always telling me how she will pray for me. Maybe she has good intentions but it comes off very fake and all she does is boast. I don't tell her off as I would normally do and one day she went a little too far. My mom might have cancer and my aunt sent me a message saying, "stop smoking - it is what God wants". By the way, nobody smokes in my family. My aunt and I are not close at all and I grew up disliking her and her personality. So I find it odd that she would rather talk about God than to have a conversation where we can begin to know each other. How do you respond to someone who is always talking about God (who has never really READ the bible) and justifying every moral melief on God. I hate arguing with Christians because it never goes anywhere and when I want mere discussion, they (Christians) get angry, say that I'm a bad person, and say that they will pray for me. I hate this.

Similar to what you said, I can care less about what people believe but my family members (well, it's really just my Aunt) drive me nuts.

All my life I've been the BAD person due to my lack of belief in God and reading your post brought some more peace into my "soul".

-KP
LA

This was sent from PK's phone, please excuse the errors